Today I went on my very first over-night, out-of-town business trip. My extremely generous, religiously-sensitive and nice company has arranged in advance that all of my meals will be Kosher. We are just outside of Chicago, so I checked with out office manager, and she told me the name of the caterer – since they were on the CRC’s list and they knew that I had to be served the food while the seals were unbroken, I wasn’t too concerned.
That was a few weeks ago. Just in case something got messed up with the food, this morning before I left my wife packed me a backup (bagel, plum, Dunkaroos…the good stuff!). But you know, everyone else had some delicious looking treif wraps, salads, etc…so when they told me that they were bringing out my food, I was ready.
A waiter came into the room that we are using for our conference with my food, and put it down onto the table in front of me.
Some background: any time kosher food is prepared by a reliably Kosher caterer or restaurant, with the intention of having the food delivered by non-Jews (while maintaing the Kosher integrity of the food), the food needs to be wrapped (at least once, in some cases twice) and sealed by the caterer, and delivered with the seal intact (that way you know that the food actually came from them).
Back to the story: the food that was placed in front of me was a salad, some kind of dessert, a soup and a wrap. No seals, no stickers with hashgachot, nothing. So I went to our office manager and she called the people at the hotel who had arranged for the food. They told me that the food came from the same person who has always given them their Kosher food when it was requested. I told them that I believed them, but it is kind of stange (seriously sketchy) that the food would not be wrapped, sealed, and marked with some kind of notice about the kosher supervision. So she asked if it would help me if I could talk to the person who prepares their kosher food for them. I said yes, and they got her on the phone. Let’s call her the “Anonymous Woman Who Thinks That She Can Prepare Kosher Food But Really Cannot” (or AWWTTSCPKFBRC for short).
AWWTTSCPKFBRC: Hello?
Me: Hello?
[Awkward silence since she doesn't really know why she is on the phone with me, and I don't really know what to say]
Me: So…you prepared the Kosher meal for the xxxxx hotel?
AWWTTSCPKFBRC: Yes, I did.
Me: Can you tell me who gave the hashgacha for the food?
[I was thinking that this was a good question to ask, because if she didn't know what the word hashgacha meant, the outcome of our conversation would basically be decided from the start]
AWWTTSCPKFBRC: Well, I was trained by Rabbi Ploni Almoni in how to make Kosher Food. But don’t worry, the food was made on dishes that I kashered myself, with only Kosher ingredients.
Me: [Big red warning flags going up] Um…so where exactly was this food prepared?
AWWTTSCPKFBRC: Well, I prepared it in my own kitchen.
Me: So it wasn’t prepared at the restaurant at which you work?
AWWTTSCPKFBRC: No, I couldn’t prepare it there, since it’s not a kosher restaurant, and it would be easy to mix up the ingredients.
Me: [Thinking that maybe I should try a different approach] So do you normally wrap the meat and seal it somehow, attach something to indicate the supervision?
AWWTTSCPKFBRC: That was never necessary in the past. This has always been the way that I have delivered kosher food to xxxxx hotel when they requested it and they have always been satisfied.
Me: So you don’t ever seal the food.
AWWTTSCPKFBRC: No.
Me: [Starting to see my lunch slip out of my fingers] And you said that you prepared this in your own kitchen?
AWWTTSCPKFBRC: Yes, and I kashered the dishes myself.
Me: So is your kitchen normally kosher or did you kasher the dishes specifically to make this food.
AWWTTSCPKFBRC: No my kitchen is not normally kosher. I am not Jewish.
Yes, that’s right. She wasn’t Jewish.
To recap: this fancy hotel that I am staying at likes to order their “kosher” food from a non-Jewish woman who (obviously) does not normally have a kosher kitchen, but she took a course from some rabbi once and therefore she knows exactly what it means to kasher her kitchen so that the food that she prepares in the said kitchen will be kosher.
The frustrating part about the whole thing (aside from having to watch everyone else eat their fancy food) was that I couldn’t go up to anyone else in the room and say: “Do you believe this? The hotel has a goy make their food in her treif kitchen without any supervision from someone who knows halacha, and they have the chutzpah to call it kosher? Oy Tati!”
[Don't worry - after our office manager chewed out the hotel people, they had some food delivered from Good Morgan Fish store - very delicous].
May 18th, 2005 at 11:22
I’m sorry, I don’t mean to laugh but that is hysterical. I keep trying to picture what rituals this woman does puttering about in her kitchen and thinking she is making a kosher meal. Does she own her own blowtorch for the oven? Hee hee hee.
May 24th, 2005 at 11:37
Oh, I’m certainly linking to this on KosherBlog!
May 24th, 2005 at 14:03
Which hotel was it?
May 24th, 2005 at 14:14
I’ve had similar situations multiple times. One of the worst was at a relative non-Orthodox bar mitzvah at which the “kosher meal” that my relatives told me they were getting for me was a vegetarian option from the same treif caterer that supplied everyone else. It was like an Abbot & Costello routine with the caterer trying to explain why I didn’t want/couldn’t eat the vegetarian meal and in the end, she felt worse about it that I went hungry then my relatives did. It was compounded by the fact that another guest who was ostensibly “Orthodox” ate the treif vegetarian while wearing his kippa!
May 24th, 2005 at 21:23
The hotel was the מלון עץ-כפול in Rosemont, IL. To give them credit though, once they found out that the “Kosher” meal that they had ordered me was not acceptable, they put in a big effort to get some good CRC-authorized food in from Skokie (within the hour).
May 24th, 2005 at 22:37
I think you handled this very well, balancing restraint and assertiveness. I wonder how this place made it to the CRC list, though.
May 24th, 2005 at 22:45
From my conversation with the woman who provided the “kosher” food for the hotel, she was not actually under the supervision of the CRC. When I asked her who gave the hashgacha for the food that she prepared, she did not answer the question directly – instead she said that “she had been trained by Rabbi X from the CRC”. My guess is the the CRC periodically offers courses on Kashrut that are open to the public – she went to one of these courses and afterwards declared herself to be a purveyor of kosher food. The local hotel manager didn’t know better – all they knew is that this person knew how to talk the talk (ie: she knew about kashering utensils, using kosher ingredients, etc) and she probably gave them a much better price then any caterer whose food was actually really kosher. But I do not think that the CRC had anything to do with this situation.
May 25th, 2005 at 13:25
It was compounded by the fact that another guest who was ostensibly “Orthodox” ate the treif vegetarian while wearing his kippa!
This is more common practice than you seem to believe with regard to dairy/veggie food. Perhaps the other person made a determination that the veggie meal was prepared on clean surfaces with clean utensils and used ingredients that were acceptable to that person’s best ability to judge for themselves? Note the part about judging for themselves – it was their business, not anyone else’s.
Many Orthodox Jews (this term encompasses so many different groups and seems more of a political statement in current times) purchase fish in non-kosher stores because there is a reasonable procedure for doing so that involves using cleaned knives and cutting surfaces. Your parent’s generation of Observant Jews (a much better term, IMHO) happily purchased bread from the local (unsupervised) baker, milk from the local (unsupervised) dairy/store, etc. They also generally used one oven and one sink, chas v’shalom. The vast majority of Observant Jews in Europe manage to eat just fine with very few certified restaurants and hekhshered food by using a published guidebook and their own judgment.
May 25th, 2005 at 15:17
Note the part about judging for themselves – it was their business, not anyone else’s.
It became my business when multiple people gave me a hard time about not eating treif because someone else with a kippa was doing it so therefore it must be OK and I was just being a “fanatic” and rude for not eating something that my religous beliefs precluded me from eating. I went through a “eat veggie in treif restaurants” period and I never wore a kippa while doing it.
BTW, even if “kosher standards” of a not kosher establishment are up to one’s personal standards, that doesn’t do away with the problem of bishul akum, which is assur.
May 26th, 2005 at 13:48
Ah, Bishul Akum… When was the last time that you had a non-jew prepare kosher food for you, and the reason it was OK was because a Jew onserved the lighting of the flame?
That and Eruv are the two biggest loopholes I’ve found in my years of observance, and so forgive the skepticism on my part for your last minute addition of Bishul Akum to your argument, but I think you were doing just fine before you threw that in.
May 26th, 2005 at 14:05
I totally disagree.
You call it a loophole. I call it a legitimate halachic position that allows a lenient view of the definition of bishul. Leniencies and stringencies are part of halacha and the Torah – a competent posek is entitled to apply a lenience when it is appropriate (same goes with stringencies). To dismiss it as a “loophole” puts halacha on the same level as the US Tax code (lehavdil elef alfei havdalot).
Same with eruvin.
To allow an accepted leniency is one thing. To ignore a halacha (bishul akum) is quite another. I think that David’s comment was very appropriate.
May 26th, 2005 at 14:42
I must say in the telling of your story with the hotel “kosher” food, you come across as entitled, self-righteous, zealous, and frankly, childish. In fact, you personify what has become an unfortunate trend amongst many “modern” Orthodox Jews who have imposed their beliefs and practices on Jews and non-Jews alike, and expect everyone to bend over backwards to accomodate them. Next time, eat your salad, skip the soup (which probably was made from meat stock) nibble at the dessert, and stop bothering everyone. As Nathan so correctly pointed out, our parents’ generation understood how to live a religiously observant life while successfully dealing with many of the barriers to living such an existence. We younger observant Jews have built proverbial walls, look down upon anyone who isn’t Jewish or “religious” enough, and then throw a conniption (or post a demeaning blog entry) if our needs aren’t met. “Stop the madness” indeed.
May 26th, 2005 at 15:20
Al Tadin et Chavercha ad sheTagia limekomo – Do not judge your fellow until you are in his position.
I have never asked my employer to provide me with Kosher food. However, I happen to work for and with some very nice peoples (Jewish and not-Jewish) that try their hardest to take care of their employees. There is one person in my company who spends a good part of her day worrying about making it a nice place to work.
Last Summer, my company bought a barbeque in order to have some company BBQ picnics in our back yard. When I was asked if I would have any problems eating at the BBQ, I politely said that I wouldn’t be able to eat any food off of the grill, but I would bring my own lunch and eat outside with everyone else. Upon hearing this, the company president came to my desk and convinced me (against my protestations) that they would buy me my own personal grill and reimburse me for Kosher meat. They want me to feel like I am an important team member (they are successful at that) and from their perspective, it is worth spending a couple of hundred dollars to achieve that. These are the kinds of people I work with.
When I was asked to go on a business trip to Chicago, the the Office Manager (OM) called me to her office to let me know that she was already speaking to the hotel about providing Kosher food (I was not given a choice in the matter). Being that they were ordering food, I let her know that any place supervised by the CRC would be fine with me. A week later, she let me know the name of a caterer under CRC hashgacha that would be supplying food. She told me a number of times that it was very important to her that I be well taken care of, well-fed on the business trip and she put in extra effort on her own to ensure this.
There was a mix-up. The caterer that she had been told was supplying food was in fact only supplying the food for dinner. The lunch was ordered by the hotel and delivered (as described in the blog post above). As the food arrived, she told me to let her know if anything was amiss. As soon as I got the food, I saw that something was not right – the OM was looking in my direction to make sure that I was eating.
What should I do at this point? First, I did not know if there had been a mixup in the hotel and maybe they had accidentally delivered the wrong food. It could happen (and we had been told that the food was coming from a Kosher caterer). See above for what occurred at this point.
What was the other option? If I did not eat anything at all (I was not going to eat a salad that could have bugs in it and might have already been covered with non-kosher salad dressing, nor was I going to eat any of the entree or dessert, etc) the OM would have picked up on it in 2 minutes and would have come right over to me to find out what was the matter. So when I told her that there was something up with the food, I also told her that I had brought some food from home and would be perfectly happy to eat it for lunch – there was no need to make a fuss over me. She told me back: “No, that is not acceptable. I will not be comfortable with this situation until you get the food that we ordered for you. The hotel messed up and they will have to correct it.”
Knowing all of this, do you still consider me to be a “modern” Orthodox Jew who has imposed my beliefs and practices on Jews and non-Jews alike, and who expects everyone to bend over backwards to accomodate them.
May 26th, 2005 at 16:04
I can’t help think that if Nathan and Big E had their way, that every kosher dairy restuarant would go out of business, because every “kosher”-keeping Jew would be think it’s OK to eat fish/veggie at TGI Friday’s or something.
May 26th, 2005 at 17:23
Fair enough. I appreciate your clarifying the situation, and apologize for jumping to conclusions. It sounds like you work with a great bunch of people who are profoundly respectful of your traditions and who go out of their way to make you comfortable in settings that might otherwise force you to compromise your religious beliefs. Seems like they took the onus upon themselves, rather than your making them to do so.
As for David’s point about eating fish/veggie at non-kosher restaurants, I wouldn’t dare suggest to anyone that they compromise their kashrut in such a way. However, on a general level, I have observed in my own community a more stringent, dare I say fundamentalist, approach to kashrut, which is inconsistent with how previous generations of traditional Jews observed kashrut. Why was it okay, as Nathan pointed out, for our parents, many of whom are/were more observant than us, to buy a non-hechshered loaf of bread, but it’s not okay for us? Why are we so much more quick to judge another Jew’s practices? Why is there so much peer pressure in our communities?
May 27th, 2005 at 15:10
Yaakov was also protecting his employer from a wasted expenditure. If the employer paid for a week of kosher food, how, without Yaakov’s diligence, would his employer’s interests be protected?
This was to the catering situation for an entire conference – perhaps a week long event. If it were only one meal, maybe he could have eked by on a “push the salad around with a fork” strategy. To ask that someone do that for an entire week, when his employer paid for a week’s worth of kosher meals, is not reasonable. Perhaps the meals were sitting in the refrigerator somewhere, waiting to be served.
I think Yaakov handled this situation in a quiet and polite manner. He didn’t insult the AWWTTSCPKFBRC, he just asked her a series of reasonable questions without correcting her or lecturing. He adjusted the questions to her answers, only asking what he needed to ask to determine if the food met his standards of kashrut.
If he wants to take a “fundamentalist” view of kashrut, vegetarianism, or macrobiotics, that’s his business. He didn’t impose anything on anyone. He just held to his standard, and did so politely. His employer was sensitive to his quiet discomfort. He may have saved other “fundamentalists” from future similar discomforts.
May 29th, 2005 at 3:22
I can’t help think that if Nathan and Big E had their way, that every kosher dairy restuarant would go out of business, because every “kosher”-keeping Jew would be think it’s OK to eat fish/veggie at TGI Friday’s or something.
It’s always my preference and suggestion to patronize a kosher restaurant if one is available, is clean, and offers good food at (almost) reasonable prices. However, there is a certain historical reality that is being ignored by those who believe that observant Jews only eat food with formal supervision; when meat is not involved, people have managed for thousands of years to “survive” eating from non-Jewish food sources. Some of those people may have been your parents and grandparents.
May 30th, 2005 at 11:45
Nathan/Big E, I would posit that a great many of our immigrant ancestors came to this country with a lot of traditional “shtetl” understanding, but maybe not a rigourously-schooled understanding of kashrut requirements, having typically relied on their local halachic authority (and, of course, the shopowners were local and everyone knew everyone, so that it was easy for the local Rav to keep track). Once, however, you have achieved a level of scholarship in these areas, or are at least able to read and comprehend the opinions of a well-respected Rav, your level of obligation increases. Otherwise, you would be guilty of knowingly violating halachah.
As for Big E’s comments regarding “modern Orthodox”, I think they are more appropriately directed towards baalei teshuvah (a class into which I fall). Once one’s eyes are fully opened to our beautiful but demanding heritage, it is hard not to expect every other Jew to immediately realize the same thing, what is at stake for us, and the whole world. This could be misconstrued as intolerance, but for me it’s more a feeling of disappointment over missed opportunities for personal and spiritual growth. As has been the case throughout our history, we tend to fall prey to the lifestyles practiced by the non-Jews amongst whom we live. This leads to the “cultural” Jew, who quickly begins to question the origins and relevance of Torah (especially Gemara), relegating our history to mere stories told at a seder. It is to our personal benefit, both in this world and the next, to help our fellow Jews become more aware of their heritage and obligations. However, everyone must be allowed to proceed at their own pace; our job is to teach by word and example, to explain, all through the lens of compassion. Eventually, as in my personal experience, the neshama will wake from its slumber and, after a good cry over missed opportunities, begin the journey along the path of observance, growing each day.
June 1st, 2005 at 14:12
Howie, those are very telling comments. Yes, Judaism is demanding, as you say, but I wouldn’t be disappointed by less-observant Jews who can’t quite meet its demands. Though I wince at the term cultural Jew, I do think there is a broad population of less-observant Jews who make small steps (i.e. sharing stories at a Seder or occasionally lighting Shabbat candles), which is better than no steps at all. In this regard I applaud the Lubavich who take in all comers, Orthodox or not, and who don’t judge the Jew for who he/she is, but for who he/she may become.
December 1st, 2005 at 14:52
Sometimes, even with a company that does not know to offer, asking about kosher options can get you somewhere – my husband’s company, in response to a simple query about an annual holiday party, offered to get kosher meals for us.
The following year, the company advertised “kosher meals available” on their intranet publicity for the event. Several of his co-workers were thrilled to have the opportunity without being “trouble makers”. (Wait staff volunteered that there were 8 meals ordered that year.)
And all because he asked if it was possible, because otherwise we’d decline the invitation – to a $10 after-hours company party.
July 20th, 2006 at 18:04
My work recently tried to accomodate me. It was well-intentioned but it failed.
They bought Hebrew National hot dogs and cooked them uncovered in a treif oven and served them on K-Dairy hot dog buns.
Even if they had bought Empire I still wouldn’t have been able to eat it.
October 13th, 2006 at 14:03
To address the comments about the fact our previous generations used to get along fine without kosher restaurants, I’d like to point out that a lot has changed since then.
People used to make all their food from scratch at home, sometimes home-grown and sometimes from bought raw materials. Bread used to be flour and water. Now pick up a loaf and scan the ingredients, they are many, and some are unidentifiable to non-scientists. We can’t compare then and now.