In a comment to this post about our visit to Neve Daniel, Shoshana asked the following:
I’d like to know what hit you the ‘wrong’ way (about Neve Daniel). We are also looking for a community we would like to live in. We have already visited kochav yakov and I’d like to know what you think of it since you have been there too. Have you been anywhere else and what were your impressions?
Here are the things that hit us the wrong way about Neve Daniel (note: we were there for just one Shabbat - these observations are based on our experiences then and on conversations that we had. I am just listing here the things that hit us the “wrong way”. Everything else was good. Overall it is a very nice community, one where we still see as a potential place to move to, some day):
- While we walked down the street and at shul, no one to whom we had not previously been introduced went out of their way to greet us or to introduce themselves. This was confirmed to us by our hosts as being the norm rather than the exception. It seems like Neve Daniel is more of a private community, where people don’t try to involve themselves with others uninvited. Some people might view this as being ideal. We prefer more what we experienced in Kochav Yaakov - nearly every person who we saw on the street greeted us, after shul, we were approached by half a dozen different people who introduced themselves. Seemed to be just a more outgoing, friendlier, diverse and welcoming community.
- The English-speaking presence in Neve Daniel is much more obvious. Approximately 30% English speakers. We met a some American olim who did not speak any English at all (though their kids do) - and because of the Anglo presence in Neve Daniel they are able to get by doing this. Compare this to Kochav Yaakov - English speakers are about 10%, their is definitely a very nice group of English speaking olim, good social network. But the English presence is not as obvious. My wife and I are able to speak Hebew (though there is always room for improvement) and we are looking for a community where there is a solid group of American olim with whom we can be friends, yet the overall feel of the community is more Israeli. Kochav Yaakov felt much more this way than did Neve Daniel. (Though I am sure there are many people for whom this would make Neve Daniel a more desirable place to live)
- Neve Daniel is built on a hill. The shul (under construction for the past few years) is at the top of the hill. Everyone lives on the slopes. (Very beautiful views. See here for photos). The new houses are being built on a very picturesque, but very windy side of the hill. Entrance fee to the yishuv is $20-$25K. In Kochav Yaakov, new houses in a new neighborhood are being built across the street from the older neighborhood, right in the middle of things, near the entrance to the yishuv. Entrace fee to the yishuv is $2500.
- To be fair, Neve Daniel does may a slightly better location than Kochav Yaakov. Both are about the same distance from Yerushalayim (10-15 minutes). Neve Daniel is to the south, which places it in closer proximity to the new train station which will God-willing be featuring high-speed trains to the Tel Aviv area. It is also in close proximity to the other communities in Gush Etzion (like Efrat and Alon Shevut) with all that they have to offer. Kochav Yaakov is to the north, placing it closer to the Har Hotzvim hi-tech industrial park. However, current political projections are that Neve Daniel (and the rest of the Gush Etzion area) are to be included within the security fence. Kochav Yaakov will not. Though as we all know, that can change tomorrow (and for some people, may make Kochav Yaakov more attractive).
With everything else being equal (as it basically is) we like Kochav Yaakov better. But don’t take our word for it. Go see for yourself.
August 16th, 2005 at 4:32
So far as I know, the new high-speed train station will most likely NOT be in Malcha, but will be close to the entrance to the city. The new high-speed train route will go through Modi’in and NOT through Nacha Sorek (the present route).
August 17th, 2005 at 11:20
I did not have the impression that people in Neve Daniel were not friendly. On the contrary, we were so impressed from our Shabbat here (and we checked out a number of communities for Shabbat) that we decided to move here, and did so, more than 1 year ago. And our impression has been reconfirmed during the past year.
You should realize that our community has grown by more than 50% in the past couple of years, and many people have come to check out the community. It is possible that recently people have become less outgoing towards visitors, especially as it was publicized that right now there are no more housing units or plots of land available.
Kol tuv,
Moshe Feldman
August 17th, 2005 at 12:08
There was no one in Neve Daniel who was not friendly (rude) to us. However, there were many missed opportunities where people could have been friendly to us, but were not.
For example, when leaving Friday night (btw, one of the top 5 Carlebach minyanim I have ever been to, great ruach!) not one person came up to me to say Shabbat Shalom, introduce themself, ask who I was, etc (and I was trying to make eye-contact with people). Everyone was kind of talking with the people that they knew, ignoring me (the guest). When my host called over a few people and introduced me to them, they were very friendly. But no one took the initiative.
Likewise for the rest of Shabbat. After other minyanim, no one even came close to approaching me. However, everyone who hosted us or who was introduced to us by one of our hosts was very friendly.
We compare this experience to our experience in Kochav Yaakov where after davening people were practically lining up to say hello. And just so you dont think that this only happened with English speakers at the Ashkenazi minyan, I went to the Sephardi minyan on Friday night in Kochav Yaakov, and my wife was approached by one half of a young Israeli couple our age, got into a conversation (in Hebrew) and we were invited over for tea the next afternoon.
I do not claim that my experience is representative of the way Neve Daniel really is. I am just reporting on my wife’s and my impressions from one Shabbat.
And can you please explain to me: why is the fact that there are no more housing units of plots of land in any way a reason not to be completely welcoming to a guest of the community?
September 5th, 2005 at 14:08
Yaakov,
Were you at a minyan in the new (western) shechunah, or just in the older part of the yishuv? I think that people are friendlier in the new shechunah, because everyone is new and is getting to know each other. By contrast, in the older shechunah, people find it difficult to get to know 150 new families (most of whom have arrived in the past year!), and many of them have just given up. The fact that we live in a separate shechunah just heightens the feeling that the newcomers are separate from the old timers.
I myself have made an effort to get to know the old timers, and by and large, they have been friendly to me. A lot of newcomers–especially Americans–have not made such an effort (especially if their Hebrew isn’t strong).
In any case, from speaking to people in various places in Israel, I have the sense that in Israel, it is quite common for people who have been in a community for some time to not be that outgoing towards newcomers.
The question is whether the neighborhood you visited in Kochav Yaakov is a neighborhood of new residents–and therefore friendlier–or is the exception to the rule.
Kol tuv,
Moshe
September 5th, 2005 at 14:21
In answer to your question: “And can you please explain to me: why is the fact that there are no more housing units of plots of land in any way a reason not to be completely welcoming to a guest of the community?”
For me, it’s not a reason. And I doubt that anyone would consciously be unwelcoming. But it’s possible that someone who in the past might have made an effort to meet each one of 10 visiting or new families (and you visited during the summer–when a tremendous number moved in) might think that there’s no point in going through the effort again when it’s probably fruitless.
Kol tuv,
Moshe
September 6th, 2005 at 12:27
Moshe -
In ND I davened Friday evening at a minyan in the older part of the yishuv (I think) - in the basement of someone’s house that was made into a shul, with some very nice papercuts on the walls. On Shabbat morning I davened in the main minyan at the top of the hill. We did not really get a chance to see the new neighborhood.
In Kochav Yaakov, we were located in an older part of the yishuv. I davened on Friday night in a Sefardi minyan in the main beit knesset of the yishuv. Shabbat morning and mincha were at the much smaller Ashkenazi minyan. (As an aside, someone else suggested to me that part of the reason why Kochav Yaakov might seem friendlier than Neve Daniel is that Kochav Yaakov has a much higher percentage of Sefardim than Ashkenazim).
I commend you and your family for your efforts at getting to know people. I also understand how it can be hard for people to be greeting different new faces, every week, with the same enthusiasm (I cannot say for sure that I would not end up doing the same).
I would just like to repeat that our overall impression of Neve Daniel was positive (it was still a friendlier environment than many shuls I have been to in the US, and everyone to whom we were introduced was very friendly and very hispitable). Kochav Yaakov to us seems to be the exception to some of these “rules”, but only by living in a community will we be able to tell what it is really like (maybe after living for a few months in both places, our opinion would be reversed. No way to tell right now).
September 6th, 2005 at 16:06
I think that you would have gotten a different impression if you had davened in the minyan in the new shechunah.
Another question: did Kochav Yaakov have many people move in this summer? I can tell you that when I visited communities which are eager for new residents, they tended to be more outgoing towards them. Years later, I visited those same communities and found them not to be as interested in newcomers.
Kol tuv,
Moshe
September 6th, 2005 at 16:22
I visited last Winter. They are not desperate for new people, but they are not turning anyone away either (1 family arrived on a NBN flight a couple of days before we visited, a few more moved in this Summer).
As I said above, only by living in a community for at least a few months will someone be able to accurately tell the nature of the community. That said, in looking back on the two Shabbatot that we spent in the two different communities (and I can only speculate about the reasons), my wife and I felt that Kochav Yaakov was more friendly and outgoing than Neve Daniel.
October 27th, 2005 at 11:41
seems like a silly kind of discussion you two are having. my son his wife and 4 kids made aliyah this past summer to neve daniel and to me it seems that they have been warmly welcomed by everyone.
October 27th, 2005 at 11:48
Jerry - when you are planning on moving your family halfway across the world and you want to select a community that is the best fit, that will be the most welcoming and supportive of you, these “silly” details are very important.
January 23rd, 2006 at 21:52
Shalom….
we are planning on making aiyah in under 2 years B”H. we are looking at various communites, many of the same that you did and and very seriously considering mitzpe nevo in maale adumim. recently we have learned a little about Kochav Yaakov and i thought maybe i could get some insight from you. any thoughts….?
March 22nd, 2006 at 23:47
Neve Daniel is an inviting community with beautiful families. I lived there for 4 months, until returning home to the states with my 6 children and I cant tell you how remarkable the people are and the Rabbi.
The location is ideal and the views are magical.
Rosh Zurim offers swimming, cherry picking and other family activities and Efrat offers many childrens events.
To pick a place to live in Israel can only be made by experencing it for yourself.