This past Shabbat I davened at the 7am “Hashkamah” minyan at shul. We finished up with davening just about when the main minyan was getting started. At that point, my wife showed up with our son. I had the privelege of watching Moshe while my wife went to daven. He slept for half of the time, woke up, ate a bit looked around a bit, and was generally his nice calm self. During this time I stayed in a side room where the strollers were parked. It was not too crowded there (due to the rain many people did not come to shul) and it enabled me to watch him while staying away from the dozens of rowdy kids treating the shul lobby like a playground.
It was an eye-opening experience in one way. At about 10:45 (already deep into Torah reading) someone walked in with his family. With kids in tow, he put on his Tallit. Five minutes later he was in the shul lobby, involved in what I am sure was a very important conversation. Over the next 45 minutes he didn’t seem to get so much closer to shul. Sometime around Mussaf, the Tallit came off (this didn’t seem to interrupt the conversation so much).
There is a mitzvah to judge our fellow Jew favorably. Especially in this period it is important to do this (not that it is not important to do this during other parts of the year!). However, I am finding it very hard to do so in this case. Why did he (and the other people who I saw do similar things) come to shul at all? Was he thinking that he might want to daven a little, hear to Torah reading and just got side-tracked? What kind of example does he think he is setting for his children? Does it bother him at all that he is treating a house of worship like a social outing?
Is there anyone who wants to argue the other side of this? Personally, I found it quite disturbing to watching people coming into shul for the sole purpose of socializing without even going through the motions of doing what he was suppossed to be doing (though I guess he did do one good thing by not going into shul – he didn’t disturb anyone who was actually there to pray).
October 9th, 2005 at 22:03
I don’t know that I can really “defend” the other side, but do you really think it would be better for him to have stayed home entirely? For his children to not go to shul at all, not have the regularity of that outing every Shabbat? Did his wife walk in with him? Maybe this was his way of getting the kids out of the house so she could have a little quiet time Shabbat morning.
(I think I showed up around 10:15 this week….shameful for me.)
October 10th, 2005 at 11:09
As far as I could see, his wife walked in with him, and was shmoozing alongside him the whole time.
And yes, I think it would be much better off for his kids not to go to shul. Shul is not an outing every week. It is not a place to go and horse-around with your friends. And it is definitely not a place to go and watch Abba put on his Talli and then talk (and not daven) for an hour and a half.
October 10th, 2005 at 19:24
So should Ima and Abba stay home and watch TV instead?
October 10th, 2005 at 23:22
No, of course they shouldn’t. It’s Shabbos.
If it is important for them to show their children what shul is about, then they should do so. It is better to stay at home than to come to Shul for the sole purpose of staying in the lobby and talking.
October 11th, 2005 at 10:11
The world is not so easily divided into fully-observant Jews (and what defines “fully-observant” anyway?) and out-and-out secular Jews. There are people for whom the dichotomy would be “go to shul and shmooze” vs. “stay home and watch TV.” There are others who would not watch TV, but who derive their oneg Shabbat almost entirely from socializing with other members of the community. There are some for whom their shul is primarily a forum for socialization, and I’m not so sure that is a bad thing. It is, after all, a Beit Knesset, a place of gathering. I’m not disputing that actually engaging in tefillah while at shul Shabbat morning is the best option, but I disagree that the person in question should have stayed home.
October 11th, 2005 at 10:20
ongoing conversations
I thought I’d take a moment to note two interesting conversations I’ve participated in on other blogs. First, Yaakov of AliyahBlog asks: Why do they even bother coming to shul, if all they’re going to do is stand out in the lobby and shmooze? And in…
October 11th, 2005 at 10:32
Sounds great. So maybe a house of gathering should be formed somewhere else, for those who feel that the “gathering” referred to in the term “Beit Knesset” refers to any gathering, be it for prayer, socializing, eating and drinking, etc. I think it is a big stretch to say that this gathering refers to anything other than a gathering for prayer.
We say that today our shuls and houses of worship all have the status of “Mikdash Me’at” – in some way that carry over the holiness of the temple in Jerusalem. As such, there is certain decorum that is permitted and certain decorum that is not. Standing around and talking falls into the latter category.
I realize that standing in the lobby is not the same as standing in the actual room where prayer and kriyat haTorah is being done. If you are going to stand and talk, it is much better that they do it in the lobby. I am questioning what are people’s relgiious convictions if coming to shul means arriving an hour and a half late, putting on your tallit and standing around and talking. What kind of message does this send to children (and can we really blame them for treating the place like a jungle gym when there parents are doing the equivalent every week – just look out there after kedusha during Mussaf sometime!).
October 11th, 2005 at 13:32
Oh goody, I get to gripe :)
I agree with Yaakov whole-heartedly. (but at least he’s watching his kids?)
My BIGGEST pet peeve is the kids who come to shul with abba, then run around hefker IN the women’s section while abba davens. I try to arrive for leining (with 2 small kids in tow) so they can hear (quietly! I have threatened -and made good!- to go home if they can’t keep quiet) and learn that shul is for davening, not running around. And then my 3YO sees 6 and 7 YO kids running around, talking in shul. DO you mind?! And yes, I am the mean mommy who shushes her kids (audibly) even if they have wandered off. Even if they are only answering Bubbie (who lives nearby)! (Too bad I can’t shush her directly. . . )
October 17th, 2005 at 11:59
I agree with what you say in this article, and I am also turned off about people who come to Shul just to talk and not to daven.
The question is what to do about it?
Can you give the person positive encouragement toward davening that might cause him to change his ways? Can you help to mentor him in that regard?
I remember the time early in our marriage when I was new to Orthodoxy and would have benefitted greatly from a mentor to encourage me in proper practices. I eventually developed these, but it took longer than if someone would have mentored me at that time.
November 20th, 2005 at 18:58
I think you said it best: “There is a mitzvah to judge our fellow Jew favorably.” You don’t know what his weeks are like, what his kids are like, how his nights are like, etc. Maybe his kids keep his wife up at night, and Saturday mornings are the only time his wife can sleep in, so he is on “kid duty” first thing in the morning. Maybe he davened at home before coming to shul.
Alternatively (or additionally), maybe he is coming from a non-observant background, and even making it to shul at all is a higher madrega than he was at previously.
Perhaps these excursions are the only connection he and his family have to the Jewish community, and it is these very excursions which plant a seed in his children’s heads so that in fifteen years when they are in college they decide to go to Hillel (or some other Jewish function) one Friday night instead of a frat. party, and thus start on their own journey which ends up with them becoming observant and making Aliyah, etc. etc.
Or maybe it is something completely different. I don’t know — I do not walk in his shoes.
I think the important thing is, as you say, to judge favorably. If Akiva (Shabbos 127B, see e.g. http://torah.org/learning/parsha-insights/5760/kedoshim.html?print=1, in the middle of the page) could judge his employer favorably when he is directly and adversely affected by his behavior, kal v’chomer should we judge someone favorably when their behavior has no adverse impact on us.
Hatzlacha rabba with your Aliyah!
Jonathan
December 10th, 2005 at 7:25
My thoughts might not count for much on this since I am quite secular but I’ll share them anyway. Abba is not himself being the perfect role model by his behavior but by bothering to come to the shul, even if just to socialize, he is exposing his children not just to his behavior but also to the many other role-models that surround them there. They are able to see and to interact with those who are taking everything quite seriously and to see how things are “properly done” –(from my experiences at services at Chabad the vast majority of attendees daven and then socialize not socialize only). He is maintaining a connection with the community himself and, as one of the other posters noted, making sure his children forge that connection too. It is certainly important for parents to be good role models for this children but children do not always, regardless, follow in the path of their parents and his children may well end up ‘rebelling’ and being far more observant than Abba –look at me as a probably really bad example here to make you run screaming but I am extremely observant if you put me up against my mother’s and my grandparent’s level of observance.
December 19th, 2005 at 17:48
No one is a perfect role model. We want our kids to want to go to shul. We don’t want it to seem like punishment.
I live far from the community. The rare occasion in which I stay over shabbas in the community is a great time for socializing (which I do in the lobby)
Do not be a lawyer in your own community!